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Hello, TED Community.
大家好，这里是TED社区。
You are watching a TED interview series called How to Deal with Difficult Feelings.
您正在观看的是TED采访系列，《如何处理悲伤的情感》。
I'm your host, Cloe Shasha Brooks, and a curator at TED.
我是主持人克洛伊-莎莎-布鲁克斯，也是TED的一名策展人。
In this four-episode series, we've been talking with psychologists, authors and other experts who have shared insights and research about difficult feelings and how we can handle them.
在这个四集的系列节目中，我们一直在与心理学家、作家和其他专家交谈，他们分享了关于悲伤的感觉以及我们如何处理它们的见解和研究。
So now I will be speaking with David Kessler, an author who has written six books on grief and loss.
因此，现在有请大卫-凯斯勒（David Kessler），他是一位作家，写过六本关于悲伤和损失的书。
Two of those books were co-authored with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, a Swiss American psychiatrist who was a pioneer in near-death studies.
其中两本书是与伊丽莎白-库伯勒-罗斯（Elisabeth Kübler-Ross）合著的，她是一位瑞士裔美国精神病学家，是濒死研究的先驱。
And his most recent book, published last year, is called "Finding Meaning: The Sixth Stage of Grief." So let's bring David on screen.
去年他出版了一本书新书，叫做《寻找意义》：悲伤的第六个阶段。让我们有请大卫。
Hey, David, thank you for joining us.
嘿，大卫，感谢你来到我们节目。
Let's dive right in.
那我们开始吧。
So many people are struggling with grief right now and the five stages of grief are kind of typically known to be denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.
现在很多人都在与悲痛作斗争，而悲痛的五个阶段通常是否认、愤怒、讨价还价、抑郁和接受。
But can you tell us about the sixth stage of grief? Absolutely.
你能告诉我们关于悲伤的第六个阶段吗？
Absolutely.
当然可以。
And I always like to point out I was honored to work with Kübler-Ross on her stages.
我很荣幸能与库伯勒-罗斯一起研究她的阶段。
They're not linear, they're not a map for grief, there's no one right way to do grief.
它们不是线性的，它们不是悲伤的地图，没有一个正确的方式来处理悲伤。
And I think as people experience them, and also, as you know, and some people may know, I'm not only a grief specialist, but I'm a bereaved parent.
我认为人们在经历这些阶段时，如你所知，有些人可能知道，我不仅是一位悲伤专家，而且是一位失去亲人的父母。
I had a younger son, David, die a few years ago.
我有一个小儿子，大卫，几年前去世了。
Once I and so many people experience acceptance, we want more.
一旦我和许多人经历了接受，我们就想要更多。
Acceptance isn't enough for our generation.
对我们这一代来说，接受是不够的。
I think we want meaning.
我认为我们想要意义。
And I believe meaning is the sixth stage.
而我相信意义是第六个阶段。
And when we talk about meaning, I always like to point out there's no meaning in a horrible death or in a pandemic or in a wedding being canceled or a job being lost.
当我们谈论意义时，我总是喜欢指出，在可怕的死亡或大流行病中，婚礼被取消或失去工作中是没有意义的。
The meaning isn't in the horrible event. The meaning is in us. It's what we find afterwards.
意义不在可怕的事件中。意义是在我们身上。它是我们事后发现的。
I mean, I just think that's such a helpful perspective for people to hold on to.
我的意思是，我只是认为这对人们来说是一个很有帮助的观点，让你可以坚持下去。
And I also really appreciate, you know, you've written about these seven different factors that guide the concept of meaning when it comes to grief.
我也非常欣赏，你写了关于这七个不同的因素，当涉及到悲伤时，它们指导着意义的概念。
Can you tell us about those seven factors?
你能告诉我们这七个因素的情况吗？
They are, first, meaning is relative and personal.
第一，意义是相对的和个人的。
Two, meaning takes time.
第二，意义需要时间。
You may not find it until months or even years after loss because you can't rush the meaning.
你可能要到失去亲人后的几个月甚至几年才能找到它，因为你不能急于求成。
You can't say someone died or a dream died or there's a pandemic, "What's the meaning?" right away, it often takes time.
你不能说某人死了，或一个梦死了，或有一个大流行病，"意义是什么？"你现在就想知道，但它往往需要时间。
And three, meaning doesn't require understanding.
第三，意义并不要求理解。
You know, we may not understand why a relationship ends, why a divorce happens, why a pet died, why a pandemic happens.
我们可能不明白为什么一段关系会结束，为什么会发生离婚，为什么宠物会死，为什么会发生大流行病。
But we can still find meaning.
但我们仍然可以找到意义。
And four, even when you do find meaning, you won't feel it was worth the cost.
第四，即使你真的找到了意义，你也会觉得不值得付出代价。
We'd always rather have the person we loved.
我们总是宁愿拥有我们所爱的人。
And the fifth one -- and the fifth is a big one -- your loss is not a test, a lesson, something to handle, a gift or a blessing.
第五--第五是个大问题--你的损失不是一个考验，一个教训，一个需要处理的东西，一个礼物或一个祝福。
Loss is simply what happens in life.
损失只是生活中发生的事情。
And the meaning is in us afterwards.
而意义就在我们之后。
And six, only you can find your meaning.
第六，只有你能找到你的意义。
And seven, meaningful connections can replace those painful memories in time.
而七，有意义的联系可以在时间上取代那些痛苦的记忆。
The post-traumatic stress that's going on in the pandemic, I always remind people, one, we're not post, and two, we can also not just go through this, but grow through this.
在大流行病中出现的创伤后压力，我总是提醒人们，第一，我们不是后，第二，我们也可以不只是经历这个，而是通过这个成长。
And there's the possibility of post-traumatic growth also that I think is so important during these tough times.
而且还有可能出现创伤后的成长，我认为在这些艰难的时刻，这一点非常重要。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
是的，是的，是的。
Let's bring up a question from our audience.
这里有一个来自观众的问题。
OK, so someone asked, "Having lost a daughter, how do I explain my grieving process to those who don't understand but want to?"
好的，有人问："我失去了一个女儿，我如何向那些不了解但想了解的人解释我的悲伤过程？
You know, the reality is, people often, as hard as they try, may not understand our grief.
现实是，人们尽管很努力，但也可能不理解我们的悲伤。
You know, I don't know what it's like for you to lose your job, you don't know what it's like for me to have a child die.
我不知道你失去工作是什么感觉，你不知道我有一个孩子死去是什么感觉。
And I think one of the important things is for us not to compare griefs and to know the world is big enough for all our losses.
我认为重要的事情之一是我们不要比较悲痛，要知道世界之大足以容纳我们所有的损失。
So I think sometimes we have to let go of the expectation that they get it.
因此，我认为有时我们必须放下对他们的期望，让他们明白。
And we have to go, "I know you can't get it.
而我们必须说：“我知道你不能得到它。
So let me tell you what this grief feels like to me." And share our grief.
所以让我告诉你这种悲伤对我来说是什么感觉。” 并分享我们的悲痛。
Yeah. And you, kind of, have talked a lot about that, how there's big losses and little losses, but they're all valid, right? And they all get to coexist.
是的。你谈了很多，有大的损失和小的损失，但它们都是有效的，对吗？而且它们都能共存。
I remember that I was walking back in April, in front of my house with a friend, six feet apart with our masks on.
我记得我在四月份和一个朋友在我家门前散步，我们戴着口罩，相距六英尺。
And a young woman walked up to me and said, "Oh, my gosh," you know, "I heard you do something in grief. My wedding's just been postponed."
一个年轻女人走到我面前说，“哦，我的天哪，”你知道，“我听说你在悲痛中做了什么。我的婚礼刚刚被推迟了。”
And she burst into tears.
她突然哭了起来。
And I talked to her, we -- You know, she shared her experience and everything, and I consoled her.
我和她交谈，我们 -- 你知道，她分享了她的经历和一切，我安慰了她。
And after she walked away, my friend said, "Oh, my gosh, I can't believe she was going on and on about her wedding, when your child has died. She's going to get to have another wedding."
她走后，我的朋友说：“哦，我的天哪，我不能相信她一直在谈论她的婚礼，而你的孩子已经死了。
And I said, "No, no, no, we don't compare in grief. We don't have a broken head, we have a broken heart."
她将会有另一个婚礼。”我说，“不，不，不，我们不能比较悲痛。我们没有一个破碎的头，我们有一颗破碎的心。”
And everyone gets to have their own unique grief.
每个人都会有自己独特的悲痛。
And, you know, she's been dreaming about her wedding since she was five.
而且，你知道，她从五岁起就一直梦想着她的婚礼。
It doesn't take away from my grief.
这并不影响我的悲痛。
All these losses live in the world together.
所有这些损失一起生活在这个世界上。
Let's bring another question from the audience.
让我们看看另一个来自观众的问题。
Someone is asking, "Can you tell us more about post-traumatic growth? How can I start to grow from a loss?"
有人在问：“你能告诉我们更多关于创伤后的成长吗？我怎样才能从损失中开始成长？”
It's such a great question, because we always hear about post-traumatic stress, But post-traumatic growth actually occurs more.
这是一个非常好的问题，因为我们总是听到创伤后的压力，但创伤后的成长实际上发生得更多。
And that is the finding meaning.
而这就是寻找意义。
Here's one of the myths: We think we make our grief get smaller, that that's the goal.
这里有一个迷思。我们认为我们使我们的悲伤变得更小，这就是目标。
The goal isn't to make our grief smaller.
目标不是让我们的悲痛变小。
The goal is for us to become bigger, to grow around this grief.
目标是让我们变得更大，围绕这个悲伤成长。
It's not "what are we going to do after this pandemic," but "who are we going to be?"
这不是 “在这场大流行之后我们要做什么”，而是“我们要成为什么人”？
It's not, "what are we going to do after this loss?" But "Who are we going to be?"
不是 “在这次损失之后我们要做什么”？而是 “我们将成为谁？”
How can we honor the person who died?
我们怎样才能纪念死去的人？
How can we make a life and a world that's more meaningful, where maybe the bad thing that happened to you doesn't happen to other people in the future.
我们如何才能创造一个更有意义的生活和世界，也许发生在你身上的坏事在未来不会发生在其他人身上。
Or you shape someone's legacy.
或者你塑造某人的遗产。
Or we keep talking about them.
或者我们继续谈论他们。
As long as we talk about our loved ones who are no longer physically with us, they don't really die fully.
只要我们谈论我们的亲人，他们不再和我们在一起，他们就没有真正完全死去。
So just allowing ourselves to continue in life is a bit of post-traumatic growth and not shutting down.
因此，只是让我们自己在生活中继续，是一种创伤后的成长，而不是关闭。
And we need support.
而且我们需要支持。
You know, it's interesting, if something's going on with our car, we get support.
你知道，这很有趣，如果我们的车出了问题，我们会得到支持。
If something's going on with our apartment, we get support.
如果我们的公寓发生了什么事，我们会得到支持。
Sometimes we think we just have to fight our way through grief and it's OK to ask for support and for help.
有时我们认为我们只需要在悲伤中挣扎，而要求支持和帮助是可以的。
It's so important to remember that.
记住这一点是非常重要的。
When it's not tangible we forget how to ask for help.
当它不是有形的时候，我们忘记了如何寻求帮助。
Along those lines, do you believe there's a time line for grief?
沿着这些思路，你认为悲伤有一个时间线吗
Absolutely not.
绝对没有。
You know, when people ask me, "How long is my wife, my husband, my best friend going to grieve,"
你知道，当人们问我，"我的妻子，我的丈夫，我最好的朋友要悲伤多久"，
I always say, "How long is the person going to be dead? Because if they're going to be dead for a long time, you're going to grieve for a long time."
我总是说，"那个人要死多久？因为如果他们会死很长时间，你就会悲伤很长时间"。
It doesn't mean you will always grieve with pain.
这并不意味着你将永远在痛苦中悲伤。
Hopefully in time you can grieve with more love than pain.
希望到时候你能以更多的爱而不是痛苦来悲伤。
But there is no time line, and I always say we don't get over loss.
但是没有时间线，我总是说我们不能克服损失。
We don't recover from loss.
我们不能从损失中恢复。
Our loved one was not a cold or a flu.
我们的亲人不是感冒或流感。
We learn to live with it.
我们要学会和它一起生活。
And for those who are maybe ready to start on the path of meaning as they move through their grief, how does one start that process?
对于那些也许已经准备好在度过悲痛时开始走意义之路的人，如何开始这个过程？
It's actually a decision.
这实际上是一个决定。
Are you willing to find meaning in time?
你是否愿意在时间中找到意义？
Are you willing to let yourself just live a little more?
你是否愿意让自己多活一点？
Are you willing to try to think of a way that might honor what's happened in our world or what's happened in the loss in your life?
你是否愿意尝试想出一种方法来纪念在我们的世界里发生的事情，或者在你的生活中发生的损失？
It's a small decision.
这是一个小小的决定。
Am I willing to grow? Am I willing to live past this in a way that honors what I've lost? Let's bring up another question from the audience.
我是否愿意成长？我是否愿意以一种尊重我所失去的东西的方式活过这段时间？让我们提出观众的另一个问题。
"How can we help our children when they experience grief?" Such a good question.
"当我们的孩子经历悲痛时，我们该如何帮助他们？" 这是个好问题。
You know, our children are often the forgotten grievers, And it's so important -- Here's one of the things: Mourning is what we do on the outside.
你知道，我们的孩子往往是被遗忘的悲痛者，而这是非常重要的 -- 这是其中一件事。哀悼是我们在外面所做的事情。
Grief is what's inside of us.
悲伤是我们内心的东西。
I can't make you grieve.
我不能让你悲伤。
I can't make my kids grieve.
我不能让我的孩子悲伤。
All we can do is model healthy grief.
我们所能做的就是示范健康的悲痛。
And how do we model healthy grief for our children? We tell them part of our work is to grieve fully.
我们如何为我们的孩子示范健康的悲伤呢？我们告诉他们，我们工作的一部分是充分悲伤。
It's OK to be sad.
悲伤是可以被接受的。
It's OK to miss that person.
怀念那个人是可以的。
And to live fully.
但是我们要充分地生活。
Life also has to go on.
生活也必须继续下去。
I've still got to go to work, you still got to go to school.
我仍然得去工作，你仍然得去上学。
So it's the grieving and the living is what we model for them.
因此，悲痛和生活是我们为他们树立的榜样。
And it's so hard to with kids because it seems like, in some ways, they may not even know what they're feeling, right?
对孩子们来说，这很难，因为在某些方面，他们甚至可能不知道自己的感受，对吗？
So, like, how much of grief with children involves helping them understand definitions or even identifying feelings and all that?
所以，就像，与孩子们的悲伤有多少涉及帮助他们理解定义或甚至识别感觉和所有这些？
Yeah, and to just name it and open the conversation and just to let them know, you know, you can always talk about it with me.
是的，只是说出它的名字，打开对话，只是让他们知道，你知道，你可以随时和我谈论它。
You know, kids actually understand more than we give them credit for.
你知道，孩子们的理解力其实比我们给他们的评价要多。
That is true.
这倒是真的。
And euphemisms don't work.
婉转的说法并不奏效。
Don't tell them Grandpa's gone to sleep or Grandpa's on a long trip.
不要告诉他们爷爷去睡觉了，或者爷爷去长途旅行了。
You want to be honest.
你要诚实。
So, OK, here we are in a new time.
好吧，我们现在处于一个新的时代。
We're starting to come out of this pandemic, at least in some countries in the world.
我们开始走出这场大流行病，至少在世界的一些国家。
How do you think our collective grief might shift in the next few months to years from here?
你认为在接下来的几个月到几年里，我们的集体悲痛可能会如何转变？
Well, the one thing I hope we don't do is I hope we don't lose this ability to have these conversations, because that's been one of the pieces of meaning that's been important, is for the first time we're naming these feelings we're having.
嗯，我希望我们不要做的一件事是，我希望我们不要失去进行这些对话的能力，因为这一直是重要的意义之一，是我们第一次为我们的这些感受命名。
We're understanding grief, we're talking more about grief.
我们正在理解悲痛，我们正在更多地谈论悲痛。
And I hope we don't lose that after this.
我希望在这之后我们不会失去这一点。
I hope we understand grief is such a natural part of life, that everyone you've ever admired, every amazing person in the world, has gone through tough grief.
我希望我们理解悲伤是生命中如此自然的一部分，每个你曾经钦佩的人，世界上每个了不起的人，都经历过艰难的悲伤。
And there's nothing wrong with you when it happens to you.
而且当它发生在你身上时，并不是因为你犯了任何错误。
It is part of our lives.
它是我们生活的一部分。
Yeah.
是的。
We're coming close to the end, so just as a final question for you, you know, if someone is really struggling through the depths of their grief right now, what's just the most important thing for them to remember?
我们的节目即将结束，所以来看看最后一个问题，如果有人现在真的在悲伤的深渊中挣扎，对他们来说，最重要的事情是什么？
Reach out and get support, talk to someone, maybe someone who's been in grief themselves that can share that with you.
伸出援手，获得支持，与人交谈，也许是那些自己曾经历过悲伤的人与你分享经历。
It can be the family member, the coworker and get support from an organization, grief.com, as well as so many other sites, have lots of free resources that people can find.
它可以是家庭成员、同事，并从一个组织获得支持，grief.com以及许多其他网站都有很多免费资源，人们可以找到这些。
And I also want to remind people, we get so afraid of our feelings, like if I start crying, I'll never stop.
我还想提醒人们，我们如此害怕我们的感觉，就像如果我开始哭，我就永远不会停止。
I remind people no feeling is final, no feeling is forever.
我提醒人们，没有一种感觉是最终的，没有一种感觉是永远的。
You do stop crying eventually, but release those feelings in a healthy way.
你最终会停止哭泣，但要以健康的方式释放这些感觉。
Yeah, that's really helpful.
是的，这真的很有帮助。
I think that's one of the things that growing up has shown me the most, is you know, any emotion is not permanent.
我认为这是成长过程中向我展示最多的事情之一，就是你知道，任何情绪都不是永久的。
And so that's a source of relief, right?
所以这是一个解脱的来源，对吗？
And we get so stuck in thinking "This is it forever."
我们被困于思考 "这就是永远"。
But we don't know what tomorrow is going to look like.
但我们不知道明天会是什么样子。
I always say take the word -- always -- I say take the word "always" and "never" out of our vocabulary.
我总是把 “永远”和 “永远不”从我们的词汇表中拿出来。
When we go, "I'm always going to be sad," or "I'm never going to be happy again." No, you don't know what tomorrow is like, but today you're feeling sad.
当我们说，“我总是会伤心，或我永远不会再快乐”。不，你不知道明天是什么样子，只是今天你感到悲伤而已。
Just name your feelings for today.
你只要说出你今天的感受就行。
Yeah.
是的。
Thank you, David, this has been really, really meaningful, and we've learned so much from you.
谢谢你，大卫，这真的非常非常有意义，我们从你身上学到了很多。
So thanks for joining us.
感谢你。
Thank you.
谢谢你。
Have a great day.
祝你度过美好的一天。
