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第238期:知乎哲也-爱你的“小甜甜”和rua你的小狗狗,哪个更高级

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Hi everyone, and welcome back to Let's Philosophize,欢迎回到《知乎哲也》。

In the previous episode, we talked to TJ about the different concepts of love, the erotic love, pragmatic love, unconditional love, and in this episode, we are gonna find out more about love.

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Isn't there a friendship related kind of love in Greek?

Right. This is where we get into some real philosophy because now we're looking at the different definitions of these things. So this definitely blurs into the idea of Philia or friendship.

Usually Storge is the idea that is if it's friendship that it grows out of...it grows slowly to each other,not based on mutual interests. And that is a big difference because friendship, if we move on to friendship,Philia is usually based on this kind of mutual interest.

So Philia is more friendship.

Right. Right. So I think Philia you can think of when you are young and you go to a class and you meet somebody and you think that person has really interesting ideas, I want to talk to them more. This is the kind of Philia.

Isn't that your besties?

Right. Right. BFFs

Your BFFs.

Best friends forever,right?

Sorry, can I just ask because if you use Philia as part of a word to form new words, let's just say people who really love anything about English,then Anglophilia, love anything about Chinese, you have Sinophilia, 特别喜欢特别着迷于某一件事情,可以在后面加Philia, that is a word right?

Right. Right, not even always a good word either. So for example,Pedophilia,the love of children. This is...

Not in the right way, though.

Right. Right. Not you want to be friends with the children. So this is just because over time, we're talking thousands of years here, this suffix,this thing that we add on the end of words,gets used in different ways just to mean love more generally. But when we're talking about as a concept, in the Greek world,we're often talking about love of the good, love is shared with somebody, and usually a kind of shared interest as well.

And Aristotle uses this phrase that like you participate in the good together. So he especially thinks of,this idea that you talk about philosophy with people,talk about life with people is really important for the idea of Philia.

It does sound more like a friendship,so it's shared interest,probably shared values as well.

Right. Right. And usually that happens that people you want to be around, you have these shared values.

Are there any other types of love?

Ludus is another type of love. And this is playful love. This is really I think the best way of talking about this love is the love that we have for animals,especially dogs that we really like to...

Like you play with them.

Right. right. I don't want to kiss the dog. You're right. I don't want to talk to the dog.

Some people do.

Some people do, personally I don't want to kiss the dog. I don't want to talk to the dog about philosophy. I want to throw the ball, I want to have fun with the dog, and of course not just dogs,right, we often feel this way towards other people,especially children. When I spend time with children,I think they look cute, I want to play with them, and have fun, play games, and these kind of things.

But you don't talk about deep philosophical thoughts to them or with them.

I do sometimes,but only when I want them to go to sleep. If it's bedtime, it's a very good way to get them to go to sleep.

Bedtime story.

Here is a question that I would like to ask, in the field of philosophy or to philosophers,the love for another human,another thinking reasoning human, would that be seen as higher end compared with love of an animal like you play catch with your dog, because obviously you can really talk to your dog about deep meaningful things. Does that mean your love with your dog or of your dog is something inferior, lower?

So I think that philosophers, there's obviously many philosophers,but you can put them broadly in two camps.

Number one is whatever makes you happy is good. So If I enjoy spending my time with dogs more than I enjoy spending time with people,then that means I should spend time with dogs. It's just about the pure happiness what makes you happier.

But this other people that think there's a certain kind of quality and that the depth and complexity is important as well. And you can't have this relationship,although I love my dog,I can't really ever understand him. I'll never understand why he loves that ball so much ever. He just loves it so much,but I can never understand how he feels and the same thing that he can never understand how I feel when I see him,when I get home from work, for example.

True,the reason why I'm asking this is obviously when we come back to human relationships,you see a couple, and sometimes people would say they're a great couple, they are soulmates,they really have a lot of things in common, they talk about really deep meaningful things; but then you look at some other couple, they probably just play together, let's just say they play games or they do whatever, they go shopping. And some people would judge, me personally I won't,but some people would say that's very superficial because they don't have deeper connection.

Again,this is something that many people maybe including me have faced in the past that hopefully your romantic relationships they should include all of the above.

Of course.

Ideally that you would find a person erotic,right,erotically effective, that you would have some kind of pragmatic value in the relationship. Maybe you work in the same area, you would grow to love them over time unconditionally, and that you would have fun together.

That is perfect. That's a perfect relationship you have just described.

Right. Whether you can actually have this is another question whether this is practical, and it's interesting…

Be true.

...when you talk about the cultural differences that kind of Pragma I think is much more important for my Chinese friends. They think about that kind of love, pragmatic love, a lot more than my western friends; and my western friends maybe think about Eros a lot more,and this immediate feeling of attraction even though they know this can't last for 20,30,40 years, and one day the Eros will have to become something else. What do you think, Lulu?

I do agree with you, I think it's because in China,especially if you're talking about marriage, in China over the years,people always say marriage is never between two people,it's between two families.

And of course, with that being the attachment, you do have a lot more responsibilities. It's not just something that you can solve with Eros or Ludus, not just lust or playful. You have a lot of responsibilities, commitment. That is why I guess in China we probably focus more on Pragma.

Yeah,it is very important as well, I remember someone said to me that Ludus, they didn't say Ludus and Eros,but they said the fun parts of relationships...

Fun loving part.

They have to give way to real life and real love. The idea is that then this kind of playful love and romantic love are not real love. There is something that is more important about the long-term stable love.

Again,I think the same thing, I have some friends that I have had for a very long time, and maybe we don't have the same kind of playful love that we used to have when we were young boys because we already know everything about each other. I know what he's going to say. But there's something about that relationship that's very special because I know everything that he's going to say and he knows everything I’m going to say.

That's a very special bond. Let me recap, honestly,this is really like a road map to the perfect relationship. First of all,you have Eros,这种激情之爱或者这种情欲之爱;and then you have Pragma,现实之爱;you have the commitment Storge,家庭之爱或者说这种无条件的爱;Philia友爱,things you have something in common;and Ludus,游戏之爱that you have fun together. But what about self-love?Did ancient Greeks talk about loving themselves?

They did. In the Greek, if I can try, Philautia,this is love of yourself. We often call this self-respect, and we have this idea of self-improvement now. This is something that is a very important kind of love.

It's a very popular idea now, this whole self-love,self-esteem,even like the whole mindfulness, 正念什么的这种自爱,I think people in China as well are focusing more on that. But here comes the question though,Philautia,self-love, all good, but where do we draw the line of loving yourself and being self-serving, being way too self-centered or selfish only loving yourself.

This is another side of it, and especially in ancient times,this was seen as something that is negative. So we have this word in English narcissistic named after a legend of a man called Narcissus.He looked into a pool saw his own reflection fell in love,and drowned, and died. So this kind of self-love can be kind of toxic in the end, but,I also think that each kind of love can be toxic. Definitely Eros can be very toxic.

Too much of any of these love or if you let one of these love take over your life,then it's probably going to be tragic.

Exactly. And maybe some people today like just be playing,they never want to have a right, like my friend was saying, a real life that they just want to be a child for their whole life.

Want to settle down.

So again,far be it from me to judge,but a balance of these different types of love would be what I would aim for in my life, and what about you Lulu?

Yeah,hopefully I will be able to strike a balance right now, I think I'm working towards that.

I think we're gonna wrap up here. Today we talked about all these different types of love according to ancient Greeks, and also these ideas of love in philosophy. Which one would you focus more on, or do you have all of them. Leave us a comment in the comment section, and also what kind of philosophical topics you would like to hear?Let us know, then maybe we'll pick your idea. Thank you TJ for coming to the show.

Cheers Lulu bye.

重点单词   查看全部解释    
reflection [ri'flekʃən]

想一想再看

n. 反映,映像,折射,沉思,影响

联想记忆
narcissistic [,nɑ:si'sistik]

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adj. 自恋的;自我陶醉的

 
reasoning ['ri:zniŋ]

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n. 推论,推理,论证

联想记忆
immediate [i'mi:djət]

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adj. 立即的,即刻的,直接的,最接近的

联想记忆
inferior [in'fiəriə]

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adj. 次等的,较低的,不如的

联想记忆
negative ['negətiv]

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adj. 否定的,负的,消极的
n. 底片,负

联想记忆
stable ['steibl]

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adj. 稳定的,安定的,可靠的
n. 马厩,

联想记忆
playful ['pleifəl]

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adj. 爱玩耍的,幽默的

 
commitment [kə'mitmənt]

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n. 承诺,保证; 确定,实行

联想记忆
understand [.ʌndə'stænd]

想一想再看

vt. 理解,懂,听说,获悉,将 ... 理解为,认为<

 

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