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And do you think that those people are moving the industry in a better direction, a more positive direction?
你是否认为这些人正在把这行推向一个更好的方向，一个更积极的方向?
Yeah. It depends on the company.
是。这要看是哪家公司。
I think, look, Facebook’s down, it doesn’t work very much right now.
我想，脸书在走下坡路，这个公司现在运转得不太好。
That’s because Apple’s been the regulator of Facebook with its ad transparency efforts, so that’s not good.
这是因为苹果在广告透明度方面一直在监管脸书，所以脸书情况并不好。
I mean, I’m glad they’re doing it, but I wish it was our government that was doing it, not Apple.
我的意思是，我很高兴他们会这么做，但我希望是我们的政府这么做，而不是苹果。
That means Apple’s really powerful and can make or break companies.
这意味着苹果真的很强大，可以成就一家公司，也可以摧毁一家公司。
That’s not something that’s fair. Even to Facebook, it’s not fair.
这是不公平的。即使对脸书来说，这也是不公平的。
Right. I’d love to talk a little bit about that liked, feared thing that I mentioned.
对。我想谈谈我之前提到的令人又喜欢又害怕的事情。
How did you manage to maintain good relationships with all these people who you were very, very tough on?
你是如何设法与这些你曾严厉对待的人保持良好的关系的?
You know, these are guys with very big egos.
这些人都很自负。
Why didn’t more of them just stop giving you access?
为什么他们中的许多人会给你访问权限?
I don’t know. But smart people like smart questions. I’m not unfair, right? I’m not mean. I don’t think I’m snarky.
我不知道。但聪明人喜欢聪明的问题。我不是不公平，对吧? 我不刻薄。我觉得我的批评没有那么尖锐。
I think I know a lot. I think I’ve spent a lot of time understanding them, and I think they appreciate that in the back of their minds.
我想我知道的很多。我花了很多时间来了解他们，我想他们在内心深处也很感激这一点。
I think nobody likes doing talking points all day, right? Who likes that? You feel like so stupid.
我想没有人喜欢整天谈论话题，对吧? 谁喜欢呢? 你会觉得自己很愚蠢。
I think they like good discussions. I talk to everybody.
我认为他们喜欢好的讨论话题。我和每个人都会谈。
I think that’s helpful to them, because they’re surrounded by people who they pay, and therefore they’re not getting great information.
我认为这对他们很有帮助，因为他们周围都是他们支付薪水的人，因此他们不能得到优质的信息。
So, if I say something, they’re like, “Huh, where did you hear that?”
如果我说了什么，他们会说，“啊，你从哪里听来的?”
You know what I mean? So, I think they like that. Tough is okay as long as you’re fair.
你明白我的意思吗? 我认为他们喜欢这样。强硬是可以的，只要你是公平的。
I think most people or most adults are fine with that.
我认为大多数人或大多数成年人都能接受。
I don’t know an adult who doesn’t appreciate honesty, and when I’m wrong I say it.
我知道没有哪个成年人不喜欢诚实，当我错了的时候，我就会说出来。
I’m not that wrong very often, honestly, but I tend to spend a lot of time studying it, and I think they appreciate that.
说实话，我并不会经常犯错，但我倾向于花很多时间研究它，我认为他们很欣赏这一点。
Then sometimes some of them just like to see if they can go around with me, but all the insecure ones never show up.
有时他们中的一些人只是想看看是否能和我说到一起，但缺乏安全感的人从来没有出现过。
I’ve been trying to get an interview Peter Thiel forever.
我一直想采访彼得·蒂尔。
We’ve had some very good discussions, though, over the years.
不过，这些年来，我们有过一些很好的讨论。
And Zuckerberg hasn’t done an interview with you in a long time, right?
你已经很久没有采访过扎克伯格了，对吧?
Now in his case, no, 2019, 2018. I would give him an out.
他的采访，不，2019年，2018年。我不想再采访他。
Every time he shows up for an interview with me, it gets worse.
每次他出现在采访中，情况会变得很糟。
The first one was the sweating, which was not his fault, really.
首先是出汗，这不是他的错，真的。
He was having a classic panic attack, I think.
我觉得他是典型的恐慌症发作。
We were asking him very easy questions about privacy.
我们问了他一些关于隐私的简单问题。
It wasn’t like we were beating on him.
我们又不是在揍他。
The second one, I was very adamant about what they were doing around Alex Jones, and he himself shifted the conversation to Holocaust deniers.
第二次采访，我对他们对亚历克斯·琼斯的所作所为态度强硬，他自己把话题转向了大屠杀的否认者。
I didn’t do it. He walked himself into a wall on that one and banged his head.
我没有做。他自己就走到墙上撞到了头。
You know, I think I unsettle him for some reason, so I can’t imagine… I’m always like, “Third time’s a charm, Mark.”
我觉得我因为某些原因让他不安，所以我无法想象……我总是说，“第三次会充满魅力，马克。”
You know? But I don’t think he feels… why should he? He doesn’t care.
你知道吗? 但我不认为他会觉得…他为什么会觉得?他不在乎。
