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So, you've been obsessed with this problem for the last few years. What is the problem, in your own words?
你近几年都在痴迷于这个问题。你认为问题到底是什么？
Plastic. Simple as that. Our inability to use it for the tremendous energetic commodity that it is, and just throw it away.
极其简单，塑料。我们无法将它用作巨大的能源材料，所以就把它扔掉。
And so we see waste everywhere. At its extreme, it looks a bit like this. I mean, where was this picture taken?
我们都看到了，浪费无处不在。极端一些，就会像这样。这张照片是在哪里拍的？
That's in the Philippines, and you know, there's a lot of rivers, ladies and gentlemen, which look exactly like that.
菲律宾，在那里有很多河流，女士们先生们，看起来都是这样的。
And that's the Philippines. So it's all over Southeast Asia.
那是在菲律宾拍摄的。整个东南亚都能看到这样的河流。
So plastic is thrown into the rivers, and from there, of course, it ends up in the ocean.
塑料被扔到河里，然后理所当然的进入海洋。
I mean, we obviously see it on the beaches, but that's not even your main concern.
很明显，我们在沙滩上能看到，但是这不是你最主要的担忧，
It's what's actually happening to it in the oceans. Talk about that.
你担忧的是真实发生在海洋中的事情。讲讲吧。
OK, so look. Thank you, Chris.
谢谢，克里斯。
About four years ago, I thought I'd do something really barking crazy, and I committed to do a PhD in marine ecology.
大概四年前，我想要做一些疯狂的事，于是我拿到了海洋生态学的博士学位。
And the scary part about that was, sure, I learned a lot about marine life,
可怕的是，当然，我学习了很多海洋生物，
but it taught me more about marine death
但是它教给我更多的是海洋生物的死亡，
and the extreme mass ecological fatality of fish, of marine life, marine mammals, very close biology to us,
海洋中极度混乱的生态情况，海洋中的哺乳动物，鱼类，生物上与我们很相近的动物，
which are dying in the millions if not trillions that we can't count at the hands of plastic.
数以百万计的在死去，甚至更多，仅仅是因为塑料。
But people think of plastic as ugly but stable. Right?
但是人们认为塑料是丑陋却无害的。
You throw something in the ocean, "Hey, it'll just sit there forever. Can't do any damage, right?"
人们把垃圾扔进大海，“看吧，它会一直在这里。并不会造成任何伤害，不是吗？”
See, Chris, it's an incredible substance designed for the economy.
不得不承认，塑料是对经济最好的设计。
It is the worst substance possible for the environment.
也是对环境最坏的设计。
The worst thing about plastics, as soon as it hits the environment, is that it fragments.
最坏的情况是，当塑料一触碰到大自然，它会分解成碎片。
It never stops being plastic.
它永远都是塑料。
It breaks down smaller and smaller and smaller, and the breaking science on this, Chris,
只会分解得越来越小，越来越小，这其中突破性的科学原理，
which we've known in marine ecology for a few years now, but it's going to hit humans.
我们几年前在海洋生态学中就有所了解，它会影响到人类。
We are aware now that nanoplastic, the very, very small particles of plastic,
我们知道纳米塑料，也就是塑料中非常，非常小的分子，
carrying their negative charge, can go straight through the pores of your skin. That's not the bad news.
带着负电荷，可以直接穿过你皮肤的毛孔。这还不是最坏的。
The bad news is that it goes straight through the blood-brain barrier,
最坏的部分是，它会进入到你的血脑屏障，
that protective coating which is there to protect your brain.
这层屏障能保护你的大脑。
Your brain's a little amorphous, wet mass full of little electrical charges.
你的大脑有着不规则的形状，里面都是电荷。
You put a negative particle into that, particularly a negative particle which can carry pathogens
你放进去一个负电荷，特别是一个可能有病原体的负电荷，
so you have a negative charge, it attracts positive-charge elements, like pathogens, toxins, mercury, lead.
负电荷可以吸引正电荷，比如病原体，毒素，水银，铅。
That's the breaking science we're going to see in the next 12 months.
这就是我们一年内会看到的突破性科学。
So already I think you told me that there's like 600 plastic bags or so for every fish that size in the ocean, something like that.
你之前提到过，每条在海里的鱼平均能“分配”到大约600个塑料袋。
And they're breaking down, and there's going to be ever more of them,
这些塑料在分解，会有更多的塑料袋，
and we haven't even seen the start of the consequences of that.
目前我们甚至还没意识到结局会是什么。
No, we really haven't. The Ellen MacArthur Foundation, they're a bunch of good scientists,
是的，我们还没有。艾伦·麦克阿瑟基金会有很多优秀的科学家，
we've been working with them for a while. I've completely verified their work.
我们和他们合作了一段时间。我完全验证了他们的工作。
They say there will be one ton of plastic, Chris, for every three tons of fish by, not 2050
他们说每三吨的鱼，就能够“分配”到一吨的垃圾，不需要等到2050年，
and I really get impatient with people who talk about 2050 -- by 2025.
每次人们讲2050年我都会嗤之以鼻，而是2025年。
That's around the corner. That's just the here and now.
没几年了，这种情况眼看着就要发生了。
You don't need one ton of plastic to completely wipe out marine life.
不到一吨的塑料垃圾就能彻底抹去海洋生物。
Less than that is going to do a fine job at it.
就算再少一点也一样。
So we have to end it straightaway. We've got no time.
所以我们要尽快解决，我们的时间所剩无几了。
OK, so you have an idea for ending it, and you're coming at this not as a typical environmental campaigner,
好的，你有一个很好的解决方法，不像是那种典型的环境保护家，
I would say, but as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, who has lived
而是以一个商人，一个创业者的身份，
you've spent your whole life thinking about global economic systems and how they work.
你用了你的一生思考全球经济系统和它的原理。
And if I understand it right, your idea depends on heroes who look something like this. What's her profession?
如果我理解得没错，你的想法是基于这样的英雄。她是做什么的？
She, Chris, is a ragpicker, and there were 15, 20 million ragpickers like her, until China stopped taking everyone's waste.
她是一名拾荒者，还有大约1500万到2000万像她一样的人，直到中国停止回收全世界的垃圾。
And the price of plastic, minuscule that it was, collapsed.
原本微不足道的塑料价格也随之崩塌了。
That led to people like her, which, now -- she is a child who is a schoolchild.
这导致很多像她一样的人，那些学龄儿童没钱读书了。
She should be at school. That's probably very akin to slavery.
她应该在学校读书，这和奴隶制非常相似。
My daughter Grace and I have met hundreds of people like her.
我和我的女儿格雷丝看到了数百个像她一样的人。
And there are many adults as well, literally millions around the world,
全世界还有数百万像她一样的成人，
and in some industries, they actually account for the fact that, for example, we don't see a lot of metal waste in the world.
在一些行业中，他们甚至功不可没，比如说，我们并没有看到很多金属垃圾。
That's exactly right. That little girl is, in fact, the hero of the environment.
正是如此。这个小女孩，事实上，是保护环境的英雄。
She's in competition with a great big petrochemical plant which is just down the road,
她在对抗一家石化厂，就在那条路的另一边，
the three-and-a-half-billion-dollar petrochemical plant. That's the problem.
一家市值35亿美元的石化厂。问题在于此。
We've got more oil and gas in plastic and landfill than we have in the entire oil and gas resources of the United States.
在塑料堆填区中的油气资源比整个美国的油气资源还要多。
So she is the hero. And that's what that landfill looks like, ladies and gentlemen, and it's solid oil and gas.
从塑料回收的角度说，她就是个英雄。女士们先生们，这就是堆填区的样子，这些就是固态石油和天然气。
So there's huge value potentially locked up in there that the world's ragpickers would,
所以这里有很大的开发潜能，这些捡垃圾的人们，
if they could, make a living from. But why can't they?
如果他们愿意，会以此为生。但是为什么他们不能呢？
Because we have ingrained in us a price of plastic from fossil fuels,
因为我们都有一种根深蒂固的思想，来自化石燃料的原生塑料价格，
which sits just under what it takes to economically and profitably recycle plastic from plastic.
刚刚好比通过经济的回收方法获得的塑料的价格便宜一些。
See, all plastic is is building blocks from oil and gas.
要知道，所有的塑料都来自石油和天然气。
Plastic's 100 percent polymer, which is 100 percent oil and gas.
塑料百分之百是聚合物，代表它百分之百是石油和天然气。
And you know we've got enough plastic in the world for all our needs.
这世界上的塑料能满足我们所有的需要。
And when we recycle plastic, if we can't recycle it cheaper than fossil fuel plastic,
当我们回收塑料时，如果我们的回收价格比原生的价格高，
then, of course, the world just sticks to fossil fuel plastic.
理所当然的，大家就会用原生塑料。
So that's the fundamental problem,
所以最主要的问题是，
the price of recycled plastic is usually more than the price of just buying it made fresh from more oil.
回收塑料的价格通常高于直接买新的塑料。
That's the fundamental problem.
这是最主要的问题。
A slight tweak of the rules here, Chris. I'm a commodity person.
我们把规则调整一下。我是一个商人。
I understand that we used to have scrap metal
我明白我们曾经有很多废金属，
and rubbish iron and bits of copper lying all round the villages, particularly in the developing world.
比如废铁，还有一些铜，它们散布在村子里的各个角落，特别是发展中国家。
And people worked out it's got a value. It's actually an article of value, not of waste.
人们发现这些东西是值钱的。它们实际上有价值，而不是废品。
Now the villages and the cities and the streets are clean,
现在村庄，城市，道路上都是干干净净的，
you don't trip over scrap copper or scrap iron now, because it's an article of value, it gets recycled.
如果你没有被废铁废铜绊倒，那是因为它们有价值，它们被回收了。
So what's your idea, then, to try to change that in plastics?
所以你的主张是对塑料进行类似的回收？
OK, so Chris, for most part of that PhD, I've been doing research.
这么说吧，我读博士的大部分时间都是在做研究。
And the good thing about being a businessperson who's done OK at it is that people want to see you.
当一个出色的商人的好处就是能见到很多人。
Other businesspeople, even if you're kind of a bit of a zoo animal species they'd like to check out,
其他的商人，即使你是动物园里的动物，他们也想看看，
they'll say, yeah, OK, we'll all meet Twiggy Forrest.
他们会说，好啊，让我们见见Twiggy Forrest。
And so once you're in there, you can interrogate them.
当你们见面的时候，你可以询问他们。
And I've been to most of the oil and gas and fast-moving consumer good companies in the world, and there is a real will to change.
我去过世界上大部分的石油和天然气公司，以及快速消耗品公司，真的有想要做出改变的人。
I mean, there's a couple of dinosaurs who are going to hope for the best and do nothing, but there's a real will to change.
的确有一些巨头，希望好事发生却不愿为此努力，但是也有人真心想要做出改变。
So what I've been discussing is,
所以我一直谈论的是，
the seven and a half billion people in the world don't actually deserve to have their environment smashed by plastic,
世界上的75亿人，他们的环境不应该被塑料摧毁，
their oceans rendered depauperate or barren of sea life because of plastic.
他们的海洋不应该腐烂掉，海洋生物不应该被塑料灭绝。
So you come down that chain, and there's tens of thousands of brands which we all buy heaps of products from,
所以你要找到这循环的开端，有成千上万的品牌，我们成堆的买他们的产品，
but then there's only a hundred major resin producers, big petrochemical plants,
但是只有一百个树脂生产商，大型石化厂，
that spew out all the plastic which is single use.
只用过一次的塑料，从那喷涌而出。
So one hundred companies are right at the base of this food chain, as it were. Yeah.
所以有一百个公司在这循环的根源。是的。
And so what do you need those one hundred companies to do?
那么这一百个公司，你认为应该怎么做呢？
OK, so we need them to simply raise the value of the building blocks of plastic from oil and gas,
很简单。我们需要他们提高用石油和天然气做成的塑料的价格，
which I call "bad plastic," raise the value of that, so that when it spreads through the brands and onto us,
我们把它们称作“坏塑料”，提高它们的价格，而当它们进入市场后，
the customers, we won't barely even notice an increase in our coffee cup or Coke or Pepsi, or anything.
我们作为消费者，甚至不会注意到咖啡杯的涨价或者可乐，或者百事任何东西的轻微涨价。
Like, what, like a cent extra?
就贵了1分钱？
Less. Quarter of a cent, half a cent. It'll be absolutely minimal.
更少，半分钱。这种增长几乎察觉不到。
But what it does, it makes every bit of plastic all over the world an article of value.
但是它的作用是，能使世界上每一片垃圾都有价值。
Where you have the waste worst, say Southeast Asia, India, that's where the wealth is most.
当你有很严重的污染，比如说东南亚，印度，那里是财富最丰盈的地方。
OK, so it feels like there's two parts to this.
好的，所以这里面包含两部分。
One is, if they will charge more money but carve out that excess and pay it -- into what?
第一部分，让原生塑料涨价，并把价格超出的部分用来支付，
a fund operated by someone to tackle this problem of -- what?
比如某种被管理的资金用来解决什么样的问题，
What would that money be used for, that they charge the extra for?
那些钱会用来做什么？那些额外的钱？
So when I speak to really big businesses, I say, "Look, I need you to change, and I need you to change really fast,"
当我跟大企业交谈时，我会说“听着，我需要你改了这个，而且越快越好。”
their eyes are going to peel over in boredom,
他们的眼神透露出不感兴趣，
unless I say, "And it's good business." "OK, now you've got my attention, Andrew."
除非我说：“这是一个很不错的项目。”“现在我开始感兴趣了，安德烈。”
So I say, "Right, I need you to make a contribution to an environmental and industry transition fund.
所以我会说：“好的，我需要你对环境和产业转型资金做出贡献。
Over two or three years, the entire global plastics industry
在接下来的两三年，整个全球塑料产业
can transition from getting its building blocks from fossil fuel to getting its building blocks from plastic.
可以从使用化石燃料转变到用回收塑料。
The technology is out there. It's proven."
这项科技已经存在了，已经被证实过有效。”
I've taken two multibillion-dollar operations from nothing, recognizing that the technology can be scaled.
我已经从无到有进行了两次数十亿美元的操作，认识到这项技术是可以规模化的。
I see at least a dozen technologies in plastic to handle all types of plastic.
我见过至少十几种可以处理各种各样的塑料的科技。
So once those technologies have an economic margin, which this gives them,
一旦这项产业为这些科技带来了经济价值，
that's where the global public will get all their plastic from, from existing plastic.
这将会使全世界的塑料需求都转向回收塑料。
So every sale of virgin plastic contributes money to a fund that is used to basically transition the industry
所以每卖出一片新塑料，就会有更多资金用于此产业的转型
and start to pay for things like cleanup and other pieces. Absolutely. Absolutely.
以及环境的清理。当然，当然。
And it has the incredible side benefit, which is maybe even the main benefit, of creating a market.
而且它有不可思议的额外优点，甚至可以成为主要优点，那就是创造新市场。
It suddenly makes recyclable plastic a giant business
忽然之间，可回收塑料成为了巨大的产业，
that can unlock millions of people around the world to find a new living collecting it.
可以帮助世上数百万的人找到新的生活方式。
Yeah, exactly. So all you do is, you've got fossil fuel plastics at this value and recycled plastic at this value.
正是如此。也就是说，比如原生塑料在这个价格，回收塑料在这个价格。
You change it. So recycled plastic is cheaper.
我们让它们交换一下。让回收塑料更便宜。
What I love about this most, Chris, is that, you know, we waste into the environment 300, 350 million tons of plastic.
我最喜欢的部分是，我们向环境中倾倒了3.5亿吨塑料。
On the oil and gas companies own accounts, it's going to grow to 500 million tons.
根据石油和天然气公司的估计，这个数字将会达到5亿。
This is an accelerating problem. But every ton of that is polymer.
这个问题在加速。但是每一吨塑料都是聚合物。
Polymer is 1,000 dollars, 1,500 dollars a ton.
聚合物是1000或1500美元一吨。
That's half a trillion dollars which could go into business
大约5000万美元会流入回收行业，
and could create jobs and opportunities and wealth right across the world,
可以创造工作和各种机会，创造国际化的财富，
particularly in the most impoverished. Yet we throw it away.
特别是在贫困地区。但是我们就这么白白扔掉了。
So this would allow the big companies to invest in recycling plants literally all over the world...
所以这样能让大公司们投资世界各地的回收工厂...
All over the world. Because the technology is low-capital cost, you can put it in at rubbish dumps,
任何地方。因为科技不需要大量的资金成本，你可以把它放在垃圾堆里，
at the bottom of big hotels, garbage depots, everywhere, turn that waste into resin.
酒店地下室，垃圾场，任何地方，将垃圾转换为树脂。
Now, you're a philanthropist, and you're ready to commit some of your own wealth to this.
你是一个慈善家，而且你也已经投入了自己的资金。
What is the role of philanthropy in this project?
那么慈善在这个项目中的作用是什么？
I think what we have to do is kick in the 40 to 50 million US dollars to get it going,
我认为我们需要投入4到5千万美元才能让它运行，
and then we have to create absolute transparency so everyone can see exactly what's going on.
当然我们还需要绝对的透明度，让每个人都能了解实时状况。
From the resin producers to the brands to the consumers, everyone gets to see who is playing the game,
从树脂生产商到品牌消费者，每个人都可以看到谁在掌管大权，
who is protecting the Earth, and who doesn't care.
谁在保护地球，谁又满不在乎。
And that'll cost about a million dollars a week, and we're going to underwrite that for five years.
这个的花费大概是每周100万美元，我们会提供大约5年的资金。
Total contribution is circa 300 million US dollars.
总共的支出大约是三亿。
Wow. Now... You've talked to other companies, like to the Coca-Colas of this world,
哇。现在...你也讲了别的公司，像是可口可乐，
who are willing to do this, they're willing to pay a higher price,
是愿意这么做的，他们愿意为保护环境而付高价，
they would like to pay a higher price, so long as it's fair.
他们愿意为保护环境而付高价，非常公平。
Yeah, it's fair.
是的，非常公平。
So, Coca-Cola wouldn't like Pepsi to play ball unless the whole world knew that Pepsi wasn't playing ball. Then they don't care.
除非全世界都知道百事可乐没有参与合作，否则可口可乐不会想要百事可乐参与进来，那么他们也就不在乎。
So it's that transparency of the market where, if people try and cheat the system,
所以，这就是市场的透明性，如果有人试图作弊，
the market can see it, the consumers can see it. The consumers want a role to play in this.
那么整个市场都会看到，所有消费者也会看到。消费者也想发挥作用。
Seven and a half billion of us. We don't want our world smashed by a hundred companies.
我们有75亿人。我们不想整个世界毁在几百个公司中。
Well, so tell us, you've said what the companies can do and what you're willing to do. What can people listening do?
你提到了公司能做些什么，以及你愿意做的事情。我们的观众可以做些什么呢？
OK, so I would like all of us, all around the world, to go a website called noplasticwaste.org.
我想请各位，还有世界上所有的人，登陆一个叫做noplasticwaste.org的网站。
You contact your hundred resin producers which are in your region.
你可以找到你所在地区的一百个树脂生产商。
You will have at least one within an email or Twitter or a telephone contact from you,
你会至少联系上其中一家，给他们发邮件，发推特，或是打电话，
and let them know that you would like them to make a contribution to a fund which industry can manage or the World Bank can manage.
告诉他们，你希望他们为由某个行业或世界银行所管理的基金捐款。
It raises tens of billions of dollars per year
如果每年收集到几百亿的捐款，
so you can transition the industry to getting all its plastic from plastic, not from fossil fuel.
你就可以让这个产业转型，用塑料来再生塑料，而不再使用化石燃料。
We don't need that. That's bad. This is good. And it can clean up the environment.
我们不需要它。它不好。这个很好。剩余的资金还可以用来治理环境。
We've got enough capital there, we've got tens of billions of dollars, Chris, per annum to clean up the environment.
我们有足够的资金，每年有几百亿美元用来净化环境。
You're in the recycling business.
你已经在回收行业了。
Isn't this a conflict of interest for you, or rather, a huge business opportunity for you?
这难道不会损失你的利益吗，或者，这对你来说反而是一个巨大的商机？
Yeah, look, I'm in the iron ore business, and I compete against the scrap metal business,
是的，我在铁矿行业，我与废铁公司竞争，
and that's why you don't have any scrap lying around to trip over, and cut your toe on, because it gets collected.
这就是为什么你不会在走路的时候绊倒在一堆废铁上，划破脚趾，因为它们被回收了。
This isn't your excuse to go into the plastic recycling business.
这不是你进入塑料回收行业的借口。
No, I am going to cheer for this boom. This will be the internet of plastic waste.
不是的，我还要大力提倡。这会成为塑料垃圾行业中的互联网。
This will be a boom industry which will spread all over the world,
这会是横跨世界的成熟产业，
and particularly where poverty is worst because that's where the rubbish is most, and that's the resource.
特别是严重贫困的地区，因为那是垃圾最多的地方，同时也是资源所在地。
So I'm going to cheer for it and stand back.
所以我要大力提倡，并且全力支持。
Twiggy, we're in an era where so many people around the world are craving a new, regenerative economy,
Twiggy，在我们所处的年代，很多人在世界各地发展新的、再生的经济，
these big supply chains, these big industries, to fundamentally transform.
让这些巨大的供应链，这些巨大的产业发生根本性的转变。
It strikes me as a giant idea, and you're going to need a lot of people cheering you on your way to make it happen.
这个了不起的想法震撼到我了，在这个过程中，我们也需要得到很多人的支持，才能继续前进。
Thank you for sharing this with us. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chris.
感谢您与我们分享这些。非常感谢。谢谢你，克里斯。
